38 replies to this topic

[mauro]

is there something that limits the lake run fish from getting up to the credit forks? I heard about some kind of "fish net" years ago but i never verified it.

i was thinking about this the other day and figured one of you will probably know.

[Rainbow]

is there something that limits the lake run fish from getting up to the credit forks?

There is. Pacific salmon are stopped at Streetsville dam, but some might jump over it when the water is high. Steelhead are allowed past Streetsville and go up to Norval dam. Over there a specific number of steelhead are lifted every spring by the CRAA. Browns and atlantics get full access.

Check the regs and fish on

[FishingNoob]

There is. Pacific salmon are stopped at Streetsville dam, but some might jump over it when the water is high. Steelhead are allowed past Streetsville and go up to Norval dam. Over there a specific number of steelhead are lifted every spring by the CRAA. Browns and atlantics get full access.

Check the regs and fish on

Why are the pacific salmon stopped?

[NADO]

Why are the pacific salmon stopped?

persona non grata

[Alfiegee]

There is. Pacific salmon are stopped at Streetsville dam, but some might jump over it when the water is high. Steelhead are allowed past Streetsville and go up to Norval dam. Over there a specific number of steelhead are lifted every spring by the CRAA. Browns and atlantics get full access.

Check the regs and fish on

Not sure that, that is right. I find myself re-posting things tonight. When the salmon were first introduced in the 70's everyone thought they couldn't get past the dam in Streetsville. I know the dam has changed. As teens we found that they did get over the dam and we had miles of river to fish for them to ourselves. We weren't telling
I believe the Salmon and Chrome are equally equipped to navigate the river. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Salmon are programmed by scent and location and spawn where they were stocked or born and don't travel farther. Rainbows are stocked and reproduce farther up the river and return to their own ideal spawning grounds.
Not to mention the native Trout population which can obtain a good size.

Alfie.

[Rainbow]

Some do manage to jump over Streetsville dam if they can, but the fishway is closed. You can always ask John from Craa though. He knows about the dams more than anyone.

[DEVIN]

I remember a couple of years ago I have seen salmon run through the 401 and credit in large numbers..

[Majstor]

all the chinny's are stuck at Streetsville dam they do no lift them over the dam. Only steelhead and Atlantic salmon have access to upper credit. If u see any further up river chances are they jumped over somehow. u can pm john and ask him he can fill you in on full background story.

[Klamp]

Has anyone seen any at the Forks? I've never seen them. There is a huge darn near me (Caledon) that they absolutely couldn't pass unassisted and I've yet to see anyone there helping them along. That said, there's CVAA signs there with Atlantic and Pacific listed.

[mauro]

Has anyone seen any at the Forks? I've never seen them. There is a huge darn near me (Caledon) that they absolutely couldn't pass unassisted and I've yet to see anyone there helping them along. That said, there's CVAA signs there with Atlantic and Pacific listed.

i fished the T.U. stretch at Sligo bridge for years, and many many days every year and never saw one. i also know fly fishing guides upstream of the forks up in brimstone and they have never seen them. hence my question. something clearly blocks them down stream of inglewood. I'm just curious where and what blocks them. I dont know John. Maybe if he sees this thread he can reply.
thanks all

[John from CRAA]

Fish in the Credit are allowed access based on politics and dams. The only way it will ever get better is if each and every one of you set down your rod and show up at meetings to tell MNR how you feel and what you want. Otherwise special interest groups that don't want salmon and migratory fish continue to take away your fishing opportunities.

The Credit River Fisheries Management Plan allows:

Chinook and coho salmon are stopped at Streetsville dam. Very few get over since the dam was changed in 2005, prior to that some did get over.

Steelhead are allowed to Norval, CRAA transfers some WILD adults past Norval dam (MNR sets the number, it was only 800 this spring) to a cold water spawning trib (see link)

Brown trout and Atlantic salmon are allowed free access past Norval to the Forks. CRAA fought for 15 years to get the lake run browns access and still a few complain.

Bass, American eel, sturgeon, sucker, etc on paper have free access, but are stuck below Streetsville. MNR has not allowed CRAA to lift or transfer bass for years now...no reason given yet.

Steelhead were stopped at Norval because a few anglers in the Forks didn't want them there. Chinook were stopped for a convenient egg collection site and the ignorant beleif by many biologists and anglers that they cannot reproduce. Some anglers also argued that migratory fish hurt resident trout (brown and brook) and that they should be stopped.

Yet in 2012 the knowledge we have debunks all the past rhetoric and BS and proves fish should have open access. Look out east (Bowmanville, Wilmot, Ganny) Each river has a run of roughly 10,000 steelhead, plus thousands of coho, plus 5-20,000 chinook each, plus thousands of browns and all three systems have resident brook trout and the odd migratory brook trout. Few dams, open access and great habitat means each small river produces between 30,000 and 40,000 migratory adult salmon and trout each year. The Wilmot watershed is 97km2. Bowmanville is 90km2, Ganny is 278 k m2 (and lake run fish can only access 52% of the Ganny watershed). Data from CVC, CLOCA and GRCA.

On the other hand the Credit watershed is 990 km2, 10 times larger than the Wilmot or Bowmanville watersheds! Imagine how many fish the Credit could have if dams were open and fish allowed to swim and spawn on their own.

Only chinook salmon can reproduce below Norval Dam in Georgetown. Coho, brown, steelhead and Atlantic eggs might hatch, but the fry spend 2 summers on average in the river and high temperature, few springs and flooding decimate the small fish preventing much reproduction. Yet as soon as you pass Norval there is lots of groundwater, springs, and cold temps all summer. Chinook fry hatch in April/May and leave the river by June of the same spring, thus avoiding the hot summer water temperatures. This situation is caused by geology - the river is all clay from Norval to Port Credit whereas above Norval you have many moraines, the escarpment and huge groundwater areas.

In NY, the Salmon River now produces an estimated 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 WILD chinook salmon fry every year (NY only stocks 1.2 million lake wide each year). Yet NYSDEC estimates 50% of the fry are consumed by other smolts (bow, brown, atlantic, coho) and resident brown trout every spring. At the peak in late May, chinook salmon fry make up 89% of the resident brown trout diet. The resident browns often hit 6-10 pounds and are plentiful in Salmon River. Some how they co-exist with 100,000 adult chinook, 50,000 steelhead and 30,000 coho just fine and benefit from them. Date from NYSDEC and USGS.

Out east, every stream has huge resident brown trout populations that mix, mingle and co-exist with 30,000 steelhead, chinook, coho and migratory browns just fine. Not to mention brook trout seem to do just fine in healthy, cold water sections of all these streams.

If chinook, coho, steelhead, Atlantics and migratory browns and brookies had open access to the Forks I think the Credit's run would be so large it would shock everyone. Heck, we transfer 800-2,000 steelhead to one tributary above Norval and the run is poking at 20,000 in just 8 years. From Norval to the Cateract there is roughly 70 hectares of stream bottom habitat (700,000 m2) that is all cold water habitat. 100,000 WILD salmon and trout plus resident browns pushing 10 pounds could result. Maybe more!

So the only thing blocking this world class fishery is too many anglers not taking the time to demand it from MNR and speaking up at public meetings.

John

[Klamp]

Great response John. Didn't know half of that.

[riverhugger]

Wow thanks for all that information John.


I am curious as to which special interest groups are pressuring the MNR from allowing migratory fish from running freely upstream. I would just like to try to understand why someone wouldn't want fish to naturally run where they please.

Thanks again.

[mitchrz]

If the biologists are wrong, then they should be shunned. It means that their knowledge of the system/model is incomplete. I would gladly attend one of these meetings to help pursue a better Credit River fishery. By the way, loved the numbers and comparison to the Salmon River.

[Alfiegee]

Fish in the Credit are allowed access based on politics and dams. The only way it will ever get better is if each and every one of you set down your rod and show up at meetings to tell MNR how you feel and what you want. Otherwise special interest groups that don't want salmon and migratory fish continue to take away your fishing opportunities.

The Credit River Fisheries Management Plan allows:

Chinook and coho salmon are stopped at Streetsville dam. Very few get over since the dam was changed in 2005, prior to that some did get over.

Steelhead are allowed to Norval, CRAA transfers some WILD adults past Norval dam (MNR sets the number, it was only 800 this spring) to a cold water spawning trib (see link)

Brown trout and Atlantic salmon are allowed free access past Norval to the Forks. CRAA fought for 15 years to get the lake run browns access and still a few complain.

Bass, American eel, sturgeon, sucker, etc on paper have free access, but are stuck below Streetsville. MNR has not allowed CRAA to lift or transfer bass for years now...no reason given yet.

Steelhead were stopped at Norval because a few anglers in the Forks didn't want them there. Chinook were stopped for a convenient egg collection site and the ignorant beleif by many biologists and anglers that they cannot reproduce. Some anglers also argued that migratory fish hurt resident trout (brown and brook) and that they should be stopped.

Yet in 2012 the knowledge we have debunks all the past rhetoric and BS and proves fish should have open access. Look out east (Bowmanville, Wilmot, Ganny) Each river has a run of roughly 10,000 steelhead, plus thousands of coho, plus 5-20,000 chinook each, plus thousands of browns and all three systems have resident brook trout and the odd migratory brook trout. Few dams, open access and great habitat means each small river produces between 30,000 and 40,000 migratory adult salmon and trout each year. The Wilmot watershed is 97km2. Bowmanville is 90km2, Ganny is 278 k m2 (and lake run fish can only access 52% of the Ganny watershed). Data from CVC, CLOCA and GRCA.

On the other hand the Credit watershed is 990 km2, 10 times larger than the Wilmot or Bowmanville watersheds! Imagine how many fish the Credit could have if dams were open and fish allowed to swim and spawn on their own.

Only chinook salmon can reproduce below Norval Dam in Georgetown. Coho, brown, steelhead and Atlantic eggs might hatch, but the fry spend 2 summers on average in the river and high temperature, few springs and flooding decimate the small fish preventing much reproduction. Yet as soon as you pass Norval there is lots of groundwater, springs, and cold temps all summer. Chinook fry hatch in April/May and leave the river by June of the same spring, thus avoiding the hot summer water temperatures. This situation is caused by geology - the river is all clay from Norval to Port Credit whereas above Norval you have many moraines, the escarpment and huge groundwater areas.

In NY, the Salmon River now produces an estimated 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 WILD chinook salmon fry every year (NY only stocks 1.2 million lake wide each year). Yet NYSDEC estimates 50% of the fry are consumed by other smolts (bow, brown, atlantic, coho) and resident brown trout every spring. At the peak in late May, chinook salmon fry make up 89% of the resident brown trout diet. The resident browns often hit 6-10 pounds and are plentiful in Salmon River. Some how they co-exist with 100,000 adult chinook, 50,000 steelhead and 30,000 coho just fine and benefit from them. Date from NYSDEC and USGS.

Out east, every stream has huge resident brown trout populations that mix, mingle and co-exist with 30,000 steelhead, chinook, coho and migratory browns just fine. Not to mention brook trout seem to do just fine in healthy, cold water sections of all these streams.

If chinook, coho, steelhead, Atlantics and migratory browns and brookies had open access to the Forks I think the Credit's run would be so large it would shock everyone. Heck, we transfer 800-2,000 steelhead to one tributary above Norval and the run is poking at 20,000 in just 8 years. From Norval to the Cateract there is roughly 70 hectares of stream bottom habitat (700,000 m2) that is all cold water habitat. 100,000 WILD salmon and trout plus resident browns pushing 10 pounds could result. Maybe more!

So the only thing blocking this world class fishery is too many anglers not taking the time to demand it from MNR and speaking up at public meetings.

John

Wow John. That is indeed a lot of valuable info. I for one have been advocating the Credit as a great fishery on this forum for a few years. As I said before, I'm all for rehabilitation of the river. It all sounds good to me. Just as long as it doesn't affect the Specks at Forks of the Credit and Hwy 24. Specks are the native fish to that area and I hope they will never be disturbed.
As far as I'm concerned dams preventing fish from going where they want are wrong. On the other hand native species should not be affected.
The Credit is one of gods gifts to us. Much depends on how we treat it. Let's do it right.

Alfie.

[mauro]

Wow thanks for all that information John.


I am curious as to which special interest groups are pressuring the MNR from allowing migratory fish from running freely upstream. I would just like to try to understand why someone wouldn't want fish to naturally run where they please.

Thanks again.

My feeling is that the land owners don't want crowds of people on their land. No lake run means no yahoos snagging and having fistfights in the river (like in the video posted recently). Just a thought.

[mauro]

Fish in the Credit are allowed access based on politics and dams. The only way it will ever get better is if each and every one of you set down your rod and show up at meetings to tell MNR how you feel and what you want. Otherwise special interest groups that don't want salmon and migratory fish continue to take away your fishing opportunities.

The Credit River Fisheries Management Plan allows:

Chinook and coho salmon are stopped at Streetsville dam. Very few get over since the dam was changed in 2005, prior to that some did get over.

Steelhead are allowed to Norval, CRAA transfers some WILD adults past Norval dam (MNR sets the number, it was only 800 this spring) to a cold water spawning trib (see link) http://www.youtube.com/watch?
Brown trout and Atlantic salmon are allowed free access past Norval to the Forks. CRAA fought for 15 years to get the lake run browns access and still a few complain.

Bass, American eel, sturgeon, sucker, etc on paper have free access, but are stuck below Streetsville. MNR has not allowed CRAA to lift or transfer bass for years now...no reason given yet.

Steelhead were stopped at Norval because a few anglers in the Forks didn't want them there. Chinook were stopped for a convenient egg collection site and the ignorant beleif by many biologists and anglers that they cannot reproduce. Some anglers also argued that migratory fish hurt resident trout (brown and brook) and that they should be stopped.

Yet in 2012 the knowledge we have debunks all the past rhetoric and BS and proves fish should have open access. Look out east (Bowmanville, Wilmot, Ganny) Each river has a run of roughly 10,000 steelhead, plus thousands of coho, plus 5-20,000 chinook each, plus thousands of browns and all three systems have resident brook trout and the odd migratory brook trout. Few dams, open access and great habitat means each small river produces between 30,000 and 40,000 migratory adult salmon and trout each year. The Wilmot watershed is 97km2. Bowmanville is 90km2, Ganny is 278 k m2 (and lake run fish can only access 52% of the Ganny watershed). Data from CVC, CLOCA and GRCA.

On the other hand the Credit watershed is 990 km2, 10 times larger than the Wilmot or Bowmanville watersheds! Imagine how many fish the Credit could have if dams were open and fish allowed to swim and spawn on their own.

Only chinook salmon can reproduce below Norval Dam in Georgetown. Coho, brown, steelhead and Atlantic eggs might hatch, but the fry spend 2 summers on average in the river and high temperature, few springs and flooding decimate the small fish preventing much reproduction. Yet as soon as you pass Norval there is lots of groundwater, springs, and cold temps all summer. Chinook fry hatch in April/May and leave the river by June of the same spring, thus avoiding the hot summer water temperatures. This situation is caused by geology - the river is all clay from Norval to Port Credit whereas above Norval you have many moraines, the escarpment and huge groundwater areas.

In NY, the Salmon River now produces an estimated 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 WILD chinook salmon fry every year (NY only stocks 1.2 million lake wide each year). Yet NYSDEC estimates 50% of the fry are consumed by other smolts (bow, brown, atlantic, coho) and resident brown trout every spring. At the peak in late May, chinook salmon fry make up 89% of the resident brown trout diet. The resident browns often hit 6-10 pounds and are plentiful in Salmon River. Some how they co-exist with 100,000 adult chinook, 50,000 steelhead and 30,000 coho just fine and benefit from them. Date from NYSDEC and USGS.

Out east, every stream has huge resident brown trout populations that mix, mingle and co-exist with 30,000 steelhead, chinook, coho and migratory browns just fine. Not to mention brook trout seem to do just fine in healthy, cold water sections of all these streams.

If chinook, coho, steelhead, Atlantics and migratory browns and brookies had open access to the Forks I think the Credit's run would be so large it would shock everyone. Heck, we transfer 800-2,000 steelhead to one tributary above Norval and the run is poking at 20,000 in just 8 years. From Norval to the Cateract there is roughly 70 hectares of stream bottom habitat (700,000 m2) that is all cold water habitat. 100,000 WILD salmon and trout plus resident browns pushing 10 pounds could result. Maybe more!

So the only thing blocking this world class fishery is too many anglers not taking the time to demand it from MNR and speaking up at public meetings.

John

thanks John, thats great info. I knew this was the place to ask!

Humans always feel the need to "manage" the animals. Perhaps we should spend more time worrying about water and habitat quality, as CC's recent post on the province of NB made us all realize, rather than what species are the most fun to catch. I would rather see people stop managing the fish in the river and manage the stuff that goes on around the river like construction and land fills, etc.... The fish were there and healthy and plentiful long before we showed up in big numbers starting over 100 years ago. Letting them all through and keeping the water quality high allows nature to figure out what species should be there. High water quality maximizes the productivity of the river. Along the same lines, i would also love to see the whole river as a "no kill" but i doubt that will happen any time soon.

just my $.02

[John from CRAA]

To answer a couple of the replies questions:

Alfie - Lake run fish cannot pass the Niagara Escarpment, the Cateract Falls is about 30 feet high and is the natural barrier to lake run fish. The Highway 24 brook trout section is upstream of this the Cateract Falls so lake run fish cannot get to it. Brook trout are very, very rare below the falls in the Forks of the Credit which is dominated by brown trout, Atlantic salmon juveniles at present. The West Credit is blocked by the Belfountain Dam which is 20 feet high built on a natural waterfall. CRAA's position is quite clear to protect native brook trout. However there is very limited scientific support that brook trout are impacted by lake run fish, yet there are many studies that indicate they can get along fine (this includes chinook, coho, brown, steelhead, pink and Atlantic's). I would refer you to almost every Lake Supperior tributary as an example. Over harvest and habitat loss are the greatest threats to native brook trout. Massive MNR stocking in streams from 1950 to 1980 also severely damaged native brook trout genetics.

Mauro - I know almost every land owner from the Forks of the Credit to Port Credit and I am not aware of any that share your sentiment. In fact, almost every land owner wants the fish in their backyards. Many so they can take the kids/grand kids fishing and actually catch a fish or even see some fish other than minnows and chub.

Jlisk - It is well known. TU and IWFFC are the main groups that have actively worked to stop migraptry fish in the Credit River. Their argument is it will damage the fishing in the Forks. They have argued browns will get eaten, displaced, they will only catch smolts, land owners don't want them and snaggers will follow. However the fish populations around the Great Lakes where fish have access without dams is totally the opposite. Whiteman's Creek browns are better off today with 5,000+ steelhead than when they were segregated. I can provide dozens of examples. Migraotry fish do not eat much if anything when spawning or in rivers as adults - but resident trout eat lots of fry and smolts. One resident brown from Cobourg had over 25 Atlantic salmon smolt tags in its stomach and was pooping out more tags when it was caught a few years ago.

John

[FishingNoob]

Wow, I'm late getting to this. John can you make a post when there is meeting so we can all show up? Thanks for all the info you provided. I really appreciate it.

[FishingNoob]

persona non grata

Thanks for the reply!