Keeping Chinook Roe/Abandoning Fish

[NADO]

Hello All,

We had this debate a while ago and I contacted an MNR representative to see if I could get the facts straight. They got back to me today and while I am not happy with what I found out I thought I would share my findings with the forum anyways.


Good day Mr.Nadeau,

I understand that you have 2 questions:

1. You are allowed to keep the roe and leave the fish on the river because the fish is not suitable for human consumption so I would not be permitting the fish to spoil.

2. I can take the fish keep the eggs and use the fish in my garden as fertilizer.

The relevant section in the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act that relates to your question is S.36(5) which states:


Abandonment or spoilage of fish

36(5) A person who takes a fish whose flesh is suitable for human consumption shall not,

(a) abandon the fish if its flesh may become unsuitable for human consumption; or

(B ) permit the flesh to become unsuitable for human consumption. 1997, c. 41, s. 36 (5).

Therefore, there is a legislative obligation to not let a fish spoil only if it is suitable for human consumption when taken. What you do with a retained fish that is not suitable for human consumption is up to you. Please be reminded that you are still bound by daily catch and retention limits and parts of a fish count as a fish.

I hope this information helps with your questions.

Hi Jeff,



Thank you for the response. If you could just clarify one more thing for me. Is a Salmon that comes up the river to spawn considered suitable for human consumption? And if it is not considered suitable for human consumption is it legal to keep the eggs and leave the rest of the fish where it was caught? I read an article in the paper that said it was illegal, I couldn’t find a definitive answer in the regs and sometimes incorrect facts are printed so your clarification is much appreciated. I personally do not keep any eggs and buy all of mine from fish farms, I was just asking so I could inform a few other anglers that I communicate with.



Thanks

Hello
The determination of whether or not a fish is suitable for human consumption is case by case. If an officer felt a charge for abandonment was justified, they would have to prove it was suitable for human consumption which is an element of the offence.

What you do with a fish that is not suitable for human consumption is your choice. There are not any sections in the FWCA that speak to where a person leaves fish unsuitable for human consumption. MNR officers do not enforce abandoning material or “littering” which is covered under the Environmental Protection Act.

I hope this helps



Unfortunate in my opinion but the regs are the regs...I also noticed while reading the regs that milking fish is also legal...Unfortunate as well, I guess I have to admit defeat on this topic.

 

[chris f]

i was on the ffo (flyfishingontario)site and there is some info about this type of stuff happening at bronte,you may want to read about it.it speaks of the legal harvesting and the illegal harvesting as well.

 

[salmotrutta]

Thanks for sharing NADO, that is very interesting.

I thought it said somewhere in the regs that it is illegal to clean a fish and leave the remains on the shore/river bank? Meaning it would be illegal to simply take the eggs out of a salmon and leave the rest on shore, not because you are abandoning the meat, but due to where you are leaving it. I'm too lazy to check the regs, but I think the response you got was strictly speaking to the legality of abandoning the meat.

 

[Spinninreel]

I believe that it is actually a good thing to leave the lead fish at the shore because the decaying bodies actually enrich the chain of life that makes the fishing even better. There are all kinds of stories out west where the salmon runs have been wiped out and the river and surrounding area suffers because of the lack of those rotting salmon bodies.

 

[LogJam]

thats wierd, if u look in the ontario guide for eating fish, i sure it says you can only eat so much (oz) of lake O fish, meaning spawning salmon can still be eaten, but how do you really determine if you should or not??
i know the white tailed fuzzy salmon are no good at all for eating, but fresh ones from the lake would be, (say the guide) we all know that eating a 5 year old salmon that's spawning would not be the best for anyone anywhere.

it such a wierd situation. to keep or not to keep. that is the question....lol



thanks for sharing that info nato!!

 

[Spinninreel]

A fresh salmon out of lake Ontario is questionable as to eating, and I cannot see how a river salmon which is dark and already decaying could even come close to being consumable. The MNR show ban any salmon that have entered the river from being eaten because someone could be seriously affected. This should be in the rules and regs.

 

[FrankTheRabbit]

There is a fish consumption guide published by the ministry that indicates what size and type of fish are safe to eat. They even break it down to the different bodies of water too.

 

[Spinninreel]

There is a fish consumption guide published by the ministry that indicates what size and type of fish are safe to eat. They even break it down to the different bodies of water too.

I know that there is a guide but I do not have a lot of confidence in the rules that they have made and I do not believe they address the issues of eating salmon that have already traveled into the river.

 

[Blair]

I know that there is a guide but I do not have a lot of confidence in the rules that they have made and I do not believe they address the issues of eating salmon that have already traveled into the river.

GREY ZONES

* Decent "Normal" fishermen never run into these "Hypotheticals" (Not the questions - the actual charges)

They are VALID Questions and great to explore and know the regs, However:
In my entire fishing life, I have never seen a fisherman (Ethical one):

- Be charged for using fish as fertilizer
- Be charged for gently milking an in season hen
- Leaving (1) carcass of an in season fish, caught fairly


DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT (Nor particularly wrong) .... Its just not a Coincedence that those who are breaking the rules are usually breaking SEVERAL at the SAME TIME!

The MNR can see and distinguish that.
Thank God!


*SMILES*

We all need to follow regs, that for sure .... but I also would not want a NAZI POLICE FORCE out there either!
lol

 

[NADO]

I dont think the guide to eating ontario sportfish can be used as a reference for the Abandonment of Fish clause, I think if it could be used as a referance the officer would have simply referred me to the book rather than saying it is a case by case situation where the officer has to prove it was suitable for consumption.

It seems like the make the regs with a ton of grey zone in them so that the officer has the ability to charge the angler when they deem it is necessary. Its good that the officer has that ability but it isnt good for anglers who would like to follow the regs. As an angler I would prefer if the regs adressed issues more specifically so it was clear to me if something was an infraction or not. And it would also spare alot of forum debates too lol

P.S. does this mean I can use carp for fertilzer as well then? Seems to me like anglers would care more about losing a spawning salmon than an invasive carp? Would this be a loophole for those who would like to do their part to control the carp population because I know carp over 16" in lake Ontario arent suitable for human consumption.

 

[Blair]

P.S. does this mean I can use carp for fertilzer as well then? Seems to me like anglers would care more about losing a spawning salmon than an invasive carp? Would this be a loophole for those who would like to do their part to control the carp population because I know carp over 16" in lake Ontario arent suitable for human consumption.

Considering "Carp" are still referenced as one of the "Lessor species".... the answer would be yes (although... still some GREY ZONE).
I like to put "most fish" in the same BALL PARK, .... even some of those classified as "invasive" ( I know, I know ... just my opinion *SMILES*)


I too "wish the rules were a little more clear" but that sometimes is impossible.

Many issues can not simply be BLACK & WHITE.
Including Fishing.


Keep up the good work with education and leading an example, best we can do! (Even "if" others disagree with your viewpoint)
Open discussion (Civil) is better than none.


Cheers

 

[Alfiegee]

Interesting question here. First is a fish suitable for consumption? Maybe we should ask "Survivorman". LOL If one of us were to get lost in the wilds of Bronte Creek for a few days I'm sure a spawning Chinny might taste like crap, but would offer some proteins and nutrients to help our bodies keep going so we had the energy to rub sticks together for a fire. LMAO.
Seriously, if you caught one of those decaying fish, what is to stop you from taking it home, taking the roe and burying the carcass in your garden for fertilizer? You are still consuming the nutrients from that fish the next summer and fall when you are eating the tomatoes or lettuce from your garden? I see people at Bronte all the time walk out of the river with 3 or 4 Salmon that they found dead on the shore, they don't have fishing gear, they just know where to find good fertilizer.
Finally, I see a lot of people here around Hamilton Harbor keep Carp over 16" and they are not for fertilizer, they are to feed the family.
Did I just make one of the gray areas in the regs grayer?

Alfie.

 

[Blair]

Interesting question here. First is a fish suitable for consumption? Maybe we should ask "Survivorman". LOL If one of us were to get lost in the wilds of Bronte Creek for a few days I'm sure a spawning Chinny might taste like crap, but would offer some proteins and nutrients to help our bodies keep going so we had the energy to rub sticks together for a fire. LMAO.
Seriously, if you caught one of those decaying fish, what is to stop you from taking it home, taking the roe and burying the carcass in your garden for fertilizer? You are still consuming the nutrients from that fish the next summer and fall when you are eating the tomatoes or lettuce from your garden? I see people at Bronte all the time walk out of the river with 3 or 4 Salmon that they found dead on the shore, they don't have fishing gear, they just know where to find good fertilizer.
Finally, I see a lot of people here around Hamilton Harbor keep Carp over 16" and they are not for fertilizer, they are to feed the family.
Did I just make one of the gray areas in the regs grayer?

Alfie.

LOL ... yes, you did!

It really does come down to having an MNR CO look you in the eye and make the call.
If that "Call" was made in error or bad judgement, then the JUDGE has to make it final.

THANK GOD!


I can bet 99.9% of the time, that would never happen to you!

FISH ON! (Fertalizer, plate ... )

*SMILES*


Mmmmmm .... decaying salmon.
Sounds delicious.

 

[NADO]

Seriously, if you caught one of those decaying fish, what is to stop you from taking it home, taking the roe and burying the carcass in your garden for fertilizer? You are still consuming the nutrients from that fish the next summer and fall when you are eating the tomatoes or lettuce from your garden? I see people at Bronte all the time walk out of the river with 3 or 4 Salmon that they found dead on the shore, they don't have fishing gear, they just know where to find good fertilizer.
Alfie.

If I catch one of those decaying fish I would like to see it released so it can spawn. There are alot of less destructive forms of fertilizer.

And the guys that come down to the river and take 3-4 salmon home for fertilizer are also being wasteful, those nutrients would better serve the river than their garden. Have they ever heard of compost?

Thats just my opinion.

 

[Alfiegee]

If I catch one of those decaying fish I would like to see it released so it can spawn. There are alot of less destructive forms of fertilizer.

And the guys that come down to the river and take 3-4 salmon home for fertilizer are also being wasteful, those nutrients would better serve the river than their garden. Have they ever heard of compost?

Thats just my opinion.

I agree with you Nado, and Blair completely. I was just in a silly mood last night and decided to put the Survivorman spin on things. It would actually be hard for me to grow tomatoes and lettuce through the cement driveway in my yard. ROTFL.

Alfie.

 

[newbie099]

Have read alot about Salmon spawning - in BC the bears eat just the roe and the carcass fertilizes the forest - very healthy forest - fish that die after spawning in the river fertilize the river - aquatic insects, plants, birds etc.... it is all part and parcel of the eco system. Humans taking 1 salmon a year for roe I personally don't find harmful but taking numerous (seen it Erindale) piles of gutted salmon for roe for profit is beyond unethical it should be banned for life, jail and fined. Now snagging I've seen, machete hacking, netting and even chasing I've seen - called to report no one came. To bad we can't shot idiots like this but what can we do ? Have gutted fish for roe and the fish was not fit for consumption - liver yellow - sores on the inside so dumped in field fertilizer or toxic waste - roe was perfect. Would I be charged for dumping it ? I do believe it comes down to the officer at the time - some very professional others want to be cops with very large egos. Similar to hooking (badly) fish out of slots etc... by law you are to release them to die or survive ? if kept face the fines so what is ethical and what are the rules - way to many grey areas and different situations. Some people eat salmon from lake O some don't - again personal choice - regs book on consumption not my choice of eating lists. If I won't eat it I won't put it in my garden for fertilizer either - yes every couple years take one for roe - if its clean I fertilizer it if its not very healthy I drop back in river. Sometimes you can't tell tell you slit it but release is not an option then - dumping back in river is nature - garden is natural. Lake O fish have many issues and let's be serious here pollution is just one of them. This is not unethical in my opinion as long as you don't waste any roe but for profit is just wrong.