Pike invading the Kawarthas

[dockmuskie]

Carp are not native to North America. Pike are. Given the choice, I'll trade a Carp for a Pike anyday. Pike threatening the Musky populations is an old story, and not a bad idea to keep it on the front page. They do coexist in bigger waters in NO, so I guess it depends on which area and more specifically which lake you're talking about. The MNR does treat Pike as an invasive species in Balsam, but only as a risk to the Musky pops. Carp do a lot more damage than that.

Thanks for the reply as I think this is a great discussion to have!
An invasive species is an invasive species in my opinion no matter if they hurt many fish populations or if they affect just one. I am glad pike are recognized as an invasive species in some lakes as they should be, the fact that they are a native North American fish doesn't mean they are going to be a good thing in every North American lake. Now if the pike are making their way in naturally well that is another story, but if the pike are travelling along man made waterways and using the locks constructed for tourism as a means of moving from one waterway to another than that is our fault and I think its our job as anglers and people who have enjoyed fishing these waters for many years to try to protect the ecosystem.
How large of a lake do musky and pike need to co-exist? Because I don't think the Kawarthas really offers that many large lakes, its more of a mess of medium to small waterways all pushed together.

 

[dockmuskie]

Well said. Does not matter what invasive species it is, the key word is invasive. Each and everyone of them will make a ecological change to the system they are artificially introduced. If they were meant to

Hahaha I typed almost the exact same post without reading yours. Great minds think alike so they say.

 

[manitoubass2]

Just my opinion here,

Without some really really well controlled studies on the issue then most of this is all speculation.

We, as anglers, tend to lean towards the negative side of these situations, when in all reality, maybe a growing population of pike in the Kawarthas would HELP musky populations. It's not my native lake nor have I fished there, nor am I a specialist in the field, so I also am left only to speculations.

If a pike population boom has occured, more then likely it will thin itself out in it's own cycle, I believe. Pike, like musky, aren't schooling fish. So generally the population is controlled somewhat by the area of inhabitation. When numbers increase, pike will eat pike, musky will eat pike, walleye will eat pike and so on and so forth.

Speaking of pike as an invasive species is much different then other fish that tend to get discussed in these areas as well. Pike don't behave in a matter that has them gorging on eggs 24 hours a day either.

To me, the only area of concern is similar breading grounds with a slight variant in breeding time. But I think that tends to get overthought. As forage, young muskies are not gonna be wiped out by young of the year pike. They are much more concerned on feeding of invertabrates and the like while young, then switching over to young walleye, perch, crappie, herring, ciscoes etc.

I understand the concerns, but if anything is gonna come from the conversation, it has to involve discussion of the WHOLE picture, scientifically and through experience. We cannot look at 1/10 of the picture and expect to find a solution, answer or the like.

By the time any type of credible studies are done, we will probably already have an answer as to whether or not this effects musky populations in the Kawarthas, which is unfortunate but true.

 

[FishingNoob]

Just my opinion here,

Without some really really well controlled studies on the issue then most of this is all speculation.

We, as anglers, tend to lean towards the negative side of these situations, when in all reality, maybe a growing population of pike in the Kawarthas would HELP musky populations. It's not my native lake nor have I fished there, nor am I a specialist in the field, so I also am left only to speculations.

If a pike population boom has occured, more then likely it will thin itself out in it's own cycle, I believe. Pike, like musky, aren't schooling fish. So generally the population is controlled somewhat by the area of inhabitation. When numbers increase, pike will eat pike, musky will eat pike, walleye will eat pike and so on and so forth.

Speaking of pike as an invasive species is much different then other fish that tend to get discussed in these areas as well. Pike don't behave in a matter that has them gorging on eggs 24 hours a day either.

To me, the only area of concern is similar breading grounds with a slight variant in breeding time. But I think that tends to get overthought. As forage, young muskies are not gonna be wiped out by young of the year pike. They are much more concerned on feeding of invertabrates and the like while young, then switching over to young walleye, perch, crappie, herring, ciscoes etc.

I understand the concerns, but if anything is gonna come from the conversation, it has to involve discussion of the WHOLE picture, scientifically and through experience. We cannot look at 1/10 of the picture and expect to find a solution, answer or the like.

By the time any type of credible studies are done, we will probably already have an answer as to whether or not this effects musky populations in the Kawarthas, which is unfortunate but true.

Agree with you 100%. Cheers.

 

[Joel52]

Here's something to read from the MNRView attachment 264328.pdf
Smaller lakes like Balsam have a serious issue, but like I said - I'll take a Pike over a Carp any day of the week.

 

[manitoubass2]

Here's something to read from the MNRView attachment 10296
Smaller lakes like Balsam have a serious issue, but like I said - I'll take a Pike over a Carp any day of the week.

Thats a great article showing SPECULATION as a reason to deem a natural fish as invasive, lol.

I understand the MNR is trying to prevent a decline in Musky populations in the area, but they NEED better studies to understand if it's even necessary.

Good read nonetheless, thanks

 

[Joel52]

It's from 3 years ago - nothing current, so could be they've abandoned the process?

 

[manitoubass2]

It's from 3 years ago - nothing current, so could be they've abandoned the process?

Maybe, but who knows?

On one hand, muskies are a hugely popular game fish (I'm sure that plays into this topic somewhat)

On the other hand you have massive MNR cutbacks

So???

They need some other method of examining these issues, thats a given. Altering fish populations because of speculation/lack of proper tools to study is just a horrible idea IMO.

Geez, by this logic, imagine what walleye populations would be if we just eliminated musky and pike!!!!!! Wooohoooo! hahah

I know it's hard to relate feeling to a thread post, so I'm just gonna mention hear that I'm not trying to offend anyone or anything of the like. It's def. a topic for discussion!

 

[dockmuskie]

I realize you were just kidding with the eliminate the musky and pike to save walleye but if that is what my posts have come across as "eliminate pike to save musky" that is not what I am trying to say at all. All I would like is to see some measures taking to prevent the spread of pike into areas they do not naturally inhabit.

I also agree that more concrete studies need to be done to fully understand what effect if any will be had in this scenario but does that mean we sit around and wait for someone to tell us everything is fine or that it is a problem? I guess when you think about it there really is not anything we can do.

 

[manitoubass2]

I realize you were just kidding with the eliminate the musky and pike to save walleye but if that is what my posts have come across as "eliminate pike to save musky" that is not what I am trying to say at all. All I would like is to see some measures taking to prevent the spread of pike into areas they do not naturally inhabit.

I also agree that more concrete studies need to be done to fully understand what effect if any will be had in this scenario but does that mean we sit around and wait for someone to tell us everything is fine or that it is a problem? I guess when you think about it there really is not anything we can do.

I was just talking about the situation as a whole dockmuskie, not directing my posts at you.

I can see that (the bolded part). I can understand that stance too. Ithink there is a difference in my thinking when it occurs naturally, I think it should be as is. But my mindset changes if its been introduced, which is certainly a possibility in this case.

Imagine if we did have the resources to study this topic in depth? Wow, that be a cool job. Probably cost 60 million dollars and take 20 years to aquire the data needed though (guess that brings us back to speculation and angler reports) lol

 

[dockmuskie]

I was just talking about the situation as a whole dockmuskie, not directing my posts at you.

I can see that (the bolded part). I can understand that stance too. Ithink there is a difference in my thinking when it occurs naturally, I think it should be as is. But my mindset changes if its been introduced, which is certainly a possibility in this case.

Imagine if we did have the resources to study this topic in depth? Wow, that be a cool job. Probably cost 60 million dollars and take 20 years to aquire the data needed though (guess that brings us back to speculation and angler reports) lol

Hahah yea speculation and OFF reports can only get us so far, and as much as I have tried to google this issue I really can not find anything that is concrete evidence (as I believe you have stated before). One of us will have to run for governmental office, that is the only way we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[grubman]

It's from 3 years ago - nothing current, so could be they've abandoned the process?

I can't see the MNR spending declining funds to check pike populations annually. The changes take time and they are probably setting studies a few years apart. I would not give up hope on the MNR just yet.
Thanks Joel for the PDF. I've posted that on the other forum.

I was just talking about the situation as a whole dockmuskie, not directing my posts at you.

I can see that (the bolded part). I can understand that stance too. Ithink there is a difference in my thinking when it occurs naturally, I think it should be as is. But my mindset changes if its been introduced, which is certainly a possibility in this case.

Imagine if we did have the resources to study this topic in depth? Wow, that be a cool job. Probably cost 60 million dollars and take 20 years to aquire the data needed though (guess that brings us back to speculation and angler reports) lol

The MNR is relying on anglers to give them added info on our/their catches. This will save them from spending much needed funds. This is what we can do, catch your pike, make a note of where when, how big.....etc, contact MNR and give them the details. This will add to their database and I hope action will be based on the combined input of anglers and their findings.

Hahah yea speculation and OFF reports can only get us so far, and as much as I have tried to google this issue I really can not find anything that is concrete evidence (as I believe you have stated before). One of us will have to run for governmental office, that is the only way we can get to the bottom of this.

OFF and other forums are a great medium to educate and inform others of current/future events and conditions. Any debate or dissagreement is somewhat pointless as we do not have all the facts to make any kind of judgement and cannot choose the government's policy and actions. What we do have is the ability to act as a group when the known facts points to a problem with an obvious or theoretical solution. We can as a unified and concerned group follow the recommendations by the MNR or other government bodies to attempt to correct threats to our fisheries. We, you me and others can either agree to participate or decide not to, that's the limit of our control. I for one choose to max my limit on pike, if I can even catch that many....lol., and hope this will make a dent in the population. The information is pointing to possible decreased musky, bass and walleye population, I choose to protect them. If you choose to not participate, I respect that too, it is your choice. That is all we have; facts, solution, choice and action/inaction.

I'm taking action, let the cull begin......

 

[schnip]

i want in on the action---next weekend right?? i will bust out the mepps...throw on some braid on the winch and we will hammer some pike..

 

[manitoubass2]

Best of luck on your endevours

 

[salmotrutta]

As far as reduced walleye due to pike, I am not sure of that. I've heard that young walleye feed on young pike, because the walleye hatch first. Most of the places I go fishing for pike, have healthy walleye populations. I'd say people are the biggest harvesters of walleye. Hence the slot limits.

Not 100% sure that young walleye feed on young pike, just something I heard once from an angler.

 

[dockmuskie]

OFF and other forums are a great medium to educate and inform others of current/future events and conditions. Any debate or dissagreement is somewhat pointless as we do not have all the facts to make any kind of judgement and cannot choose the government's policy and actions. What we do have is the ability to act as a group when the known facts points to a problem with an obvious or theoretical solution. We can as a unified and concerned group follow the recommendations by the MNR or other government bodies to attempt to correct threats to our fisheries. We, you me and others can either agree to participate or decide not to, that's the limit of our control. I for one choose to max my limit on pike, if I can even catch that many....lol., and hope this will make a dent in the population. The information is pointing to possible decreased musky, bass and walleye population, I choose to protect them. If you choose to not participate, I respect that too, it is your choice. That is all we have; facts, solution, choice and action/inaction.

I'm taking action, let the cull begin......

Best of luck! I definitely plan on targeting pike for some fishing, they are fun to catch too so no real reason not too!

 

[manitoubass2]

As far as reduced walleye due to pike, I am not sure of that. I've heard that young walleye feed on young pike, because the walleye hatch first. Most of the places I go fishing for pike, have healthy walleye populations. I'd say people are the biggest harvesters of walleye. Hence the slot limits.

Not 100% sure that young walleye feed on young pike, just something I heard once from an angler.

Walleye indeed eat pike and vise versa, same with pike and musky, and bass etc. The flawed view is on the young of the year point. These fish eat each other quite often and doesn't seem to cause issue. But young of the year of all these species are FORAGE for older fish as well, it is what it is. Not just a difference in a few weeks spawning time

Best of luck! I definitely plan on targeting pike for some fishing, they are fun to catch too so no real reason not too!

Very fun to catch! Best of luck to you both!

 

[grubman]

Thanks all, I just hope I can find and get them from shore. Monday is looking really good weather wise, sunny in the day rain coming in at afternoon/night. I've got 4 or 5 spots to scout out as long as they are public accessible I'm there.

Here's a link to fillet pike.
http://outdoorcanada.ca/1517/skills/articles-skills/properly-fillet-a-pike
What 5lb and over?

I've never tried it, anyone got a better method?

Get the Rocky Madsen's Fish Crisp, onions and taters......lol.

EDIT: better pics on this site.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/cs47/pike-fillets.html

 

[manitoubass2]

Thanks all, I just hope I can find and get them from shore. Monday is looking really good weather wise, sunny in the day rain coming in at afternoon/night. I've got 4 or 5 spots to scout out as long as they are public accessible I'm there.

Here's a link to fillet pike.
http://outdoorcanada.ca/1517/skills/articles-skills/properly-fillet-a-pike
What 5lb and over?

I've never tried it, anyone got a better method?

Get the Rocky Madsen's Fish Crisp, onions and taters......lol.

If it's sunny and warm, look for shallow sand. Big fish will sun on the sand. Look at ambush points to, use above water clues if you can.

The 5 fillet method is untouchable for pike, and super easy with no bones. Just keep yer knife sharp!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3-GLr9bTXM

 

[grubman]

i want in on the action---next weekend right?? i will bust out the mepps...throw on some braid on the winch and we will hammer some pike..

Yeah just hope the weather is going to be good. Plan for the Sat.