Tips on spring steel

[bharkasaig]

Swing - Unless you suck like me. Without a guide or long periods on rivers (ha, three kids under 5) or pure luck sometimes being able to see where the fish are means more success.

I'm not debating whether it is easier. Just if it is more 'sporting'

I'm sure you on your dirty trib land way more fish than me on any trib. Steelhead in the dirty is sporting to you. Sucker in the clear is sporting to me.


To weigh in on the the larger discussion, nowhere do I read Tossing advocating pulling anything off the redds. He just suggested targeting males who follow females.

I have no success with steelhead but have followed salmon. In my experience multiple males are usually found close behind females. Admittedly this is only one season's worth of fishing behind me but I cannot recall seeing a single female without a male. I was fishing gin clear water. I also saw spawning and not spawning.

Come to think of it, I targeted a group of males around a female in a pool at least 8 feet deep against a reinforced wall. There was a female and around 3 males (I forget exactly). I ended up losing a lure to one. Pretty sure they weren't spawning. (again, maybe this is different for steelhead, I don't know)

To be clear, I agree we should all know what redds look like (thanks Tall for helping out another noob) and should leave our stocks alone when breeding.

I have issue when we equate fishing tactics with a lack of regard without reason. Aren't we all suspect then for fishing when breeding is about to happen?

 

[Disco]

Any fishing of Salmoniod species seems to be a learning curve for beginners. Unless you have someone very knowledgeable to teach you most of us start out as kids or teens stomping around on rivers, probably damaging reds and spooking fish. I have seen a lot of people progress from sight fishermen to fishermen who target fresh fish they can't see. Some people never progress past sight fishing and some just don't care and keep ripping fish off the beds. Ripping fish off beds is like shooting a Wild Turkey while it is still roosting in a tree, while not illegal it is un sporting and somewhat unethical depending on your ethical mind set. I do target fish in gin clear water I can see at times. A Steelhead In the fall in a gin clear pool five feet or more can be spotted, I would fish then. Steelhead in gin clear water over a gravel flat I would not fish for. These fish are in the "process" of spawning. Steelhead make several reds when they spawn not just one. A fish or several fish do sit in shallow water over gravel often with males chasing a single female. These fish may have been Redding just before you have shown up or just about to redd. Either way I find this unethical to fish for these fish in my own set of ethics but that is where my fishing has evolved to over the last 35 years of Steelhead fishing. The real question is where as a fisherman/woman do you want to evolve to in your fishing endeavours? Do you want to become a meat hunter then fine the law is on your side but many catch and release fishermen are not. Do you want to only fish artificials or fly fish only? Do you want to chuck hardware at the piers only when the fish are at their prime and nowhere near spawning? Etc.

I personally prefer to use many different methods and types of rods to enjoy all aspects of Steelheading. I keep a few fish a year for food and never strip fish for roe. I also don't stomp on reds or fish fish off gravel flats no matter what I think they are doing. I use artificials and live bait where it's permitted. I find my Ethics to be practical and reasonable as we all fine our own ethics to be. That being said I have been yelled at and frowned upon for keeping a fish for the table and called names for using live bait by others on formus like this one.

Amazing how we as people see our way as the only way even though we probably all evolved from some sort of less knowledgeable and less ethical angler. I prefer not to preach ethical standards that I have made for myself but preach education and science of fish behaviours and needs with environmental respect. I hope by doing this other will raise their awareness and possibly their ethical mind set. That mind set may never align with mine but better ethics is better indeed no matter if they are the same as mine or not.

 

[ApacheFishingVentures]

Any fishing of Salmoniod species seems to be a learning curve for beginners. Unless you have someone very knowledgeable to teach you most of us start out as kids or teens stomping around on rivers, probably damaging reds and spooking fish. I have seen a lot of people progress from sight fishermen to fishermen who target fresh fish they can't see. Some people never progress past sight fishing and some just don't care and keep ripping fish off the beds. Ripping fish off beds is like shooting a Wild Turkey while it is still roosting in a tree, while not illegal it is un sporting and somewhat unethical depending on your ethical mind set. I do target fish in gin clear water I can see at times. A Steelhead In the fall in a gin clear pool five feet or more can be spotted, I would fish then. Steelhead in gin clear water over a gravel flat I would not fish for. These fish are in the "process" of spawning. Steelhead make several reds when they spawn not just one. A fish or several fish do sit in shallow water over gravel often with males chasing a single female. These fish may have been Redding just before you have shown up or just about to redd. Either way I find this unethical to fish for these fish in my own set of ethics but that is where my fishing has evolved to over the last 35 years of Steelhead fishing. The real question is where as a fisherman/woman do you want to evolve to in your fishing endeavours? Do you want to become a meat hunter then fine the law is on your side but many catch and release fishermen are not. Do you want to only fish artificials or fly fish only? Do you want to chuck hardware at the piers only when the fish are at their prime and nowhere near spawning? Etc.

I personally prefer to use many different methods and types of rods to enjoy all aspects of Steelheading. I keep a few fish a year for food and never strip fish for roe. I also don't stomp on reds or fish fish off gravel flats no matter what I think they are doing. I use artificials and live bait where it's permitted. I find my Ethics to be practical and reasonable as we all fine our own ethics to be. That being said I have been yelled at and frowned upon for keeping a fish for the table and called names for using live bait by others on formus like this one.

Amazing how we as people see our way as the only way even though we probably all evolved from some sort of less knowledgeable and less ethical angler. I prefer not to preach ethical standards that I have made for myself but preach education and science of fish behaviours and needs with environmental respect. I hope by doing this other will raise their awareness and possibly their ethical mind set. That mind set may never align with mine but better ethics is better indeed no matter if they are the same as mine or not.

Absolutely could not have said that any better. Thank you

 

[rich_ace_G]

I do sight fishing and I do blind fishing....both are fun. The goal is to observe how fish reacts to the offering. I know a lot of people gets frustrated when they see fish, drift in front and fish turns away...I used to get frustrated to. I guess it's a common reaction for us anglers. But I have learn a lot about steels. A twitch, strike zone, color of fly or bead. I used to be too lazy to change offering because I felt like tying and re tying is a waste of time and I was too anxious to have my line on the water. But I just find my success rate better when I keep changing offerings.

 

[bharkasaig]

Any fishing of Salmoniod species seems to be a learning curve for beginners. Unless you have someone very knowledgeable to teach you most of us start out as kids or teens stomping around on rivers, probably damaging reds and spooking fish. I have seen a lot of people progress from sight fishermen to fishermen who target fresh fish they can't see. Some people never progress past sight fishing and some just don't care and keep ripping fish off the beds. Ripping fish off beds is like shooting a Wild Turkey while it is still roosting in a tree, while not illegal it is un sporting and somewhat unethical depending on your ethical mind set. I do target fish in gin clear water I can see at times. A Steelhead In the fall in a gin clear pool five feet or more can be spotted, I would fish then. Steelhead in gin clear water over a gravel flat I would not fish for. These fish are in the "process" of spawning. Steelhead make several reds when they spawn not just one. A fish or several fish do sit in shallow water over gravel often with males chasing a single female. These fish may have been Redding just before you have shown up or just about to redd. Either way I find this unethical to fish for these fish in my own set of ethics but that is where my fishing has evolved to over the last 35 years of Steelhead fishing. The real question is where as a fisherman/woman do you want to evolve to in your fishing endeavours? Do you want to become a meat hunter then fine the law is on your side but many catch and release fishermen are not. Do you want to only fish artificials or fly fish only? Do you want to chuck hardware at the piers only when the fish are at their prime and nowhere near spawning? Etc.

I personally prefer to use many different methods and types of rods to enjoy all aspects of Steelheading. I keep a few fish a year for food and never strip fish for roe. I also don't stomp on reds or fish fish off gravel flats no matter what I think they are doing. I use artificials and live bait where it's permitted. I find my Ethics to be practical and reasonable as we all fine our own ethics to be. That being said I have been yelled at and frowned upon for keeping a fish for the table and called names for using live bait by others on formus like this one.

Amazing how we as people see our way as the only way even though we probably all evolved from some sort of less knowledgeable and less ethical angler. I prefer not to preach ethical standards that I have made for myself but preach education and science of fish behaviours and needs with environmental respect. I hope by doing this other will raise their awareness and possibly their ethical mind set. That mind set may never align with mine but better ethics is better indeed no matter if they are the same as mine or not.

Thumbs up. This is why I keep coming back here - great answers/positions will happen. Thanks Disco

 

[bharkasaig]

I used to be too lazy to change offering because I felt like tying and re tying is a waste of time and I was too anxious to have my line on the water. But I just find my success rate better when I keep changing offerings.

Ok, so I'm totally there (fishing offerings to death). Thanks to other commitments I have a morning at most on a trib. How often do you change things up? Will you work an area with one presentation then cycle through or do one presentation, move on, then come back with the next presentation?

 

[bigugly]

I go through a lot of presentations and usually change up after I've hit all the seams of a run or pool, I give each presentation at least 10 minutes up to about 20 minutes unless I'm getting hits. I also mess around with my weights a lot finding just the right drift speed, sometimes it's not the presentation its how its presented. Also when water is high check out spots you normally might not fish or check out places you may have pre scouted, on small tribs I fish I will walk them in low water looking for funnels and little pockets to keep in mind for high water days. I catch a majority of my fish on high water days in places you normally wouldn't fish. I also find roe, beads and egg pattern flies work best in morning switching to bugs and nymphs and stoneflies as day warms.

 

[fisgfreek]

pre scouted, on small tribs I fish I will walk them in low water looking for funnels and little pockets to keep in mind for high water days. I catch a majority of my fish on high water days. Bingo that's the way to do it , scout scout and scout some more.

 

[rich_ace_G]

Ok, so I'm totally there (fishing offerings to death). Thanks to other commitments I have a morning at most on a trib. How often do you change things up? Will you work an area with one presentation then cycle through or do one presentation, move on, then come back with the next presentation?

I change up every 20 minutes...color of beads, pink worms, flies...I don't go out as much anymore but would be in the river for maximum 3-4 hours...and would probably 1 km stretch of a river...it drains your energy more if you're not hitting any and getting frustrated so give yourself a break sometime, read the water, just observe, go through your inventory and see what else you have...gather up more energy to keep you going.

 

[MuskieBait]

Ok, so I'm totally there (fishing offerings to death). Thanks to other commitments I have a morning at most on a trib. How often do you change things up? Will you work an area with one presentation then cycle through or do one presentation, move on, then come back with the next presentation?

When we talk about presentation, there are actually multiple things to a presentation. For the purpose of this, we'll just focus on float fishing. But you can adapt this concept to other methods too.

1) Bait or lure
2) Shot pattern
3) Line and leader diameter or length
4) Drift speed
5) Float style

Hypothetical situation:

I arrived at a section of the river. For the purpose here, I'll say it is a pool. Using the best judgement based on experience (or lack of), I decided on a bait, shot pattern, line, leader and length, drift speed and float.

I made a number of drift and didn't receive a bite. Now what?

The first and likely easiest thing to do immediately is to change the drift speed. After a few drifts, I should know if:

1) My drift is too fast or too slow
2) My bait is too high or too low

If the drift is too fast, it may mean I have too few shots. If I think I have enough shots, then I can adjust and slow down my drift be controlling with BOTH the rod and the reel to slow down the drift. So the first thing to change in my presentation is either change my shot pattern, or my drift speed.

If the drift is too slow, it may mean I have too many shots, or my leader is too long and it is dragging on bottom. So the first thing to change in my presentation is to either change my shot pattern, or to shorten my lead.

This first decision should be made almost immediately. A few drifts is all it takes to figure it out.

I make my adjustment and still my drift is too fast or too slow. So it may mean I need the right style float. It is now time to change either to a slimmer or fatter float. Getting your drift speed and depth right is more important than finding the right bait or lure in my experience. If my roe bag is suspended 3 feet above the fish drifting at a breakneck speed, the fish many refuse it. If my pink worm is dragging along the sandy bottom getting silted up, the fish may not see it. That is why I always make sure the drift it right first and foremost.

When I am a little more confident that my drift is fine, and still I am not getting hits, then I start to question my bait or lure selection. At this stage, I DO NOT question what type of bait it is, but how it affects my drift. A plastic worm is more buoyant than a roe bag than a beadhead nymph. Is the buoyancy of the bait or lure (or lack of buoyancy) affecting where the bait is in the water column? Did I forget to adjust the lead and shot pattern based on the buoyancy?

At this point, I would reexamine my lead, shot pattern and bait to make sure I have it considered. Maybe I need to change something here. I would make minor adjustments and make a few drifts to see if it will lead to a hit.

If I am certain that my bait or lure is in sync with my shot pattern and leader, then I start to question the visibility of my leader. Is the water too clear? Do I need to use fluoro or drop down in line diameter? If it is necessary, then I make the change. First, I would change up the leader length (increase or decrease in some case), then I would change up the leader diameter.

Aside from visibility, the diameter of the leader can also affect the drift. A thicker line has more water resistance, and thus, get pushed up (lifted up) by water resistance. If I am using a large bait, maybe the effect of water resistance on the large bait outweights the line diameter. But if I am using single egg, or a #16 unweighted nymph, or any small baits/lure, then the line diameter can certainly adds resistance to your whole system.

Similarly, a longer leader also adds extra water resistance to the system. So sometimes, instead of using a longer leader, I actually shorten it to get the right drift.

So changing the line isn't just for visibility purpose. And at times, the changes I need to make is counter intuitive due to the conditions.

If I am still not getting hits, then I would question my bait selection last. Maybe I am using the wrong bait all along. Bait switch is ALWAYS the last for me to change. I believe that fish, in general, is not that picky. If my presentation is done right, they are often more of less willing, especially on the first few drifts. Failing that, maybe it is the bait.

BUT...if I change up my bait, I will have to check again how my bait affects the drift. An aerodynamic, quick sinking, small beadhead nymph will drift faster than a semi-buoyant, large plastic worm. So right after I change my bait, I go through the check list again.

With some experience, you can make these decisions quickly. A few drifts should be informative. In fact, as I work through the pool, my presentation at the head of the pool can differ significantly from my presentation at the middle of the pool vs. the tail of the pool. I am constantly changing my presentation based on the current situation.

For myself, I've learned that if the water condition is perfect and I'm not getting hits in prime spots after a few drifts, I will immediately change things up. If the water is gin clear and the fish are especially wary, I will try to perfect the presentation until I change something up. Sometimes, it may take up to 15 to 20min before I move onto something else, or somewhere else.

Failing that, I throw a large boulder into the pool to piss off the fish

 

[fisgfreek]

Bobber and a worm or a piece a corn and sometimes not even a bobber just the hook and a split shot LOL. It's become very technical now a days almost like a profession. A lot of guys graduate but just a few are truly Masters.

 

[MuskieBait]

Bobber and a worm or a piece a corn and sometimes not even a bobber just the hook and a split shot LOL. It's become very technical now a days almost like a profession. A lot of guys graduate but just a few are truly Masters.

I had quite a few hits while leaving my line in the water with the bait just a few inches below the surface...usually when I'm answering the phone, or working out a wind knot, or grabbing a bite or drink. The bait was held stationary, not even drifting naturally.

Sometimes, if they want to eat, they will do crazy things. But if you really want to do well in numbers and quality on most days, and especially the really challenging days, then you need to be more technical.

 

[TheTallFisherman]

When we talk about presentation, there are actually multiple things to a presentation. For the purpose of this, we'll just focus on float fishing. But you can adapt this concept to other methods too.

1) Bait or lure
2) Shot pattern
3) Line and leader diameter or length
4) Drift speed
5) Float style

Hypothetical situation:

I arrived at a section of the river. For the purpose here, I'll say it is a pool. Using the best judgement based on experience (or lack of), I decided on a bait, shot pattern, line, leader and length, drift speed and float.

I made a number of drift and didn't receive a bite. Now what?

The first and likely easiest thing to do immediately is to change the drift speed. After a few drifts, I should know if:

1) My drift is too fast or too slow
2) My bait is too high or too low

If the drift is too fast, it may mean I have too few shots. If I think I have enough shots, then I can adjust and slow down my drift be controlling with BOTH the rod and the reel to slow down the drift. So the first thing to change in my presentation is either change my shot pattern, or my drift speed.

If the drift is too slow, it may mean I have too many shots, or my leader is too long and it is dragging on bottom. So the first thing to change in my presentation is to either change my shot pattern, or to shorten my lead.

This first decision should be made almost immediately. A few drifts is all it takes to figure it out.

I make my adjustment and still my drift is too fast or too slow. So it may mean I need the right style float. It is now time to change either to a slimmer or fatter float. Getting your drift speed and depth right is more important than finding the right bait or lure in my experience. If my roe bag is suspended 3 feet above the fish drifting at a breakneck speed, the fish many refuse it. If my pink worm is dragging along the sandy bottom getting silted up, the fish may not see it. That is why I always make sure the drift it right first and foremost.

When I am a little more confident that my drift is fine, and still I am not getting hits, then I start to question my bait or lure selection. At this stage, I DO NOT question what type of bait it is, but how it affects my drift. A plastic worm is more buoyant than a roe bag than a beadhead nymph. Is the buoyancy of the bait or lure (or lack of buoyancy) affecting where the bait is in the water column? Did I forget to adjust the lead and shot pattern based on the buoyancy?

At this point, I would reexamine my lead, shot pattern and bait to make sure I have it considered. Maybe I need to change something here. I would make minor adjustments and make a few drifts to see if it will lead to a hit.

If I am certain that my bait or lure is in sync with my shot pattern and leader, then I start to question the visibility of my leader. If the water too clear? Do I need to use fluoro or drop down in line diameter? If it is necessary, then I make the change. First, I would change up the leader length (increase or decrease in some case), then I would change up the leader diameter.

If I am still not getting hits, then I would question my bait selection last. Maybe I am using the wrong bait all along. Bait switch is ALWAYS the last for me to change. I believe that fish, in general, is not that picky. If my presentation is done right, they are often more of less willing, especially on the first few drifts. Failing that, maybe it is the bait.

BUT...if I change up my bait, I will have to check again how my bait affects the drift. An aerodynamic, quick sinking, small beadhead nymph will drift faster than a semi-buoyant, large plastic worm. So right after I change my bait, I go through the check list again.

With some experience, you can make these decisions quickly. A few drifts should be informative. In fact, as I work through the pool, my presentation at the head of the pool can differ significantly from my presentation at the middle of the pool vs. the tail of the pool. I am constantly changing my presentation based on the current situation.

For myself, I've learned that if the water condition is perfect and I'm not getting hits in prime spots after a few drifts, I will immediately change things up. If the water is gin clear and the fish are especially wary, I will try to perfect the presentation until I change something up. Sometimes, it may take up to 15 to 20min before I move onto something else, or somewhere else.

Failing that, I throw a large boulder into the pool to piss off the fish

Well said!!

How do you measure if your float is going to fast or too slow?

 

[MuskieBait]

Well said!!

How do you measure if your float is going to fast or too slow?

If the water is clear enough, you can watch how fast debris (leaves, algae...etc) is drifting a couple of feet below the surface. Once you gauge that speed, slow down a little more. The current close to the bottom is often much slower than the surface current, so you can't simply match the speed of your float with the surface current or bubbles for the correct drift speed.

You can also watch your shot pattern. If it is angled far too much downstream too quickly, you know it is drifting too fast. If it is too vertical (or sometimes BACKWARDS), you know it is drifting too slow. You can usually tell with the first couple feet of line below your float, or watch how your float is angled. If it tilts too much one way or another, it should be an indicator of your drift speed.

If the water is too coloured up or murky, then you have to use your experience and best judgement. For me, this is really the most difficult part of fishing high water, big water or murky water. It's hard to gauge how fast your "natural" drift should be. It becomes part experience and part experiment. You can still use the tilt of your float as an indicator of drift speed...but sometimes, on really BIG rivers like the Niagara, there would be 2 or 3 layers of current and it is very difficult to read if these currents are strong. For that reason, I usually prefer bottom bouncing the Niagara to take out a lot of the guess work.

But in general, slow it down.

There are some spots where fish will hold under a complicated current. On the surface, it looks chaotic and the drift goes all over the place (away from you, then back to you, then downstream, and back upstream...). But sometimes, in such chaotic water, the bottom is actually very calm (all the chaos above cancel each other out and water settles below). In such places, I've even had success simply holding my float and rig in place with the rod tip...and got some very violent hits.

 

[tossing iron]

Muskie. Holding float in place.
That's actually a tip I don't let out. Lol
Found a spot last year about the size of my coffee table swirling like a little whirl pool.
Dropped a pinkie in .
Float never budged.
But it sure went down quick.
Pulled 4 out of there.

 

[MuskieBait]

Muskie. Holding float in place.
That's actually a tip I don't let out. Lol
Found a spot last year about the size of my coffee table swirling like a little whirl pool.
Dropped a pinkie in .
Float never budged.
But it sure went down quick.
Pulled 4 out of there.

Should I retract before too many prying eyes? :razz:

Yeah, must be in a good mood today. I don't usually give out freebies. :mrgreen:

 

[TheTallFisherman]

Well I definitely appreciate any and all advice that's posted!